Part
III
当代哲学的精神转向与文明间对话（2012）
Tu Weiming & John B. Cobb Jr.
English Transcripts: Huang Qi
Editors: Misha A. Tadd, Jonathan P. Keir
Translator：Jia Peitao
Cobb: Zhihe likes to talk about a second enlightenment, which is now needed.治河就很喜欢谈论“第二次启蒙”（a Second Enlightenment），这是现在所需。 Tu: Yes, yes, mm-hmm.是，是，嗯嗯。 Cobb: That makes it clear that you’re not rejecting or saying we should have never engaged in the first enlightenment. 现在很清楚了：您不是在拒斥第一次启蒙，也不是说我们压根不应该涉入第一次启蒙。 Tu: You just cannot afford it.只是负担不起那样说的代价。 Cobb: We had to go through that, but it’s time, now, for the second enlightenment我们必须经历那个过程，但现在，是时候，来场第二次启蒙了。 Tu: Yeah, but normally people, when they talk about the second or the new enlightenment, they talk about almost it like born again Christians. They talk about the emergence of something much more advanced in science without any special concern about their own indigenous cultural traditions, because they felt that’s not as relevant as what had actually happened in the earlier period.是呢，但通常，人们在谈论第二次启蒙或新启蒙时，却几乎是像获得重生的基督徒们（born-again Christians）那样谈论它。他们谈论的是科学上更为先进的事物出现，而并不特别关注自己的本土文化传统，因为他们认为本土传统与较早时期的实际情况并不相关。 Cobb: But Zhihe thinks that in the second enlightenment there can be a renewal of...不过治河认为在第二次启蒙中，可以有一种复兴…… Tu: The traditions.诸传统的复兴。 Cobb: ...of the more classical thinking. 更多古典思维的复兴。 Tu: Well that’s terrific.嗯，棒极了。 Cobb: That’s our program in China.那是我们在中国的项目计划。 Tu: Oh. You have some written document on this or some reference?噢，那您有关于此的书面文件或参考资料吗？ Cobb: Well, Zhihe has published a book in Chinese that I have not read, but you might.这个，治河出版了一本我还没有读过的中文书，但您可能会读读。 Tu: OK. I will try to do that. Now, I do have one last question; I have an idea. The care for the Earth is so powerful and motivating force for philosophical thinking, or certainly theological thinking that it seems imperative that major Axial Age civilizations will have to develop, maybe in reference to the current situation, a new language of global citizenship. Because of obviously, not just ecological issues, but the financial problems, the problems you’ve been dealing with in terms of economics and so forth, these all emerge as contemporary modern phenomena. None of this has its origins in major traditions. No major traditions have had experience of dealing with these new problems. Cobb: That’s why the only world religion today is economism. [laughs]好的，我会试着找来一读。现在，我还有最后一个问题：我有个想法，关怀地球的思潮已经如此强大，成为激发哲学思维——当然 也激发神学思维——的促动力，以至于似乎，各大主要轴心文明都有 必要根据目前的情况发展出一种新的全球公民（global citizenship）语汇。这不仅是因为生态问题，也还因为财政问题，亦即那些您一直在 经济学意义上处理的问题等。这些都是作为当代的现代性现象出现的。它们在主要文明传统中，都不是由传统根源导致的。没有任何主要传统有处理这些新问题的经验。这也是为什么，经济主义（economism）成了今天绝无仅有的世界宗教。［笑］ Tu: Of course, we don’t like that. 当然，我们不喜欢这一点。 Cobb: No, I hate it.对，我讨厌这个。 The new language has to be developed, but how it relates to specific religious traditions? Let’s say we have language of the Christian, which has gone through all kinds of transformations and that is still very deeply rooted in a particular community, concrete human life. However, there’s also demand for, not just because of globalization but also the perennial problems we face like the viability of the human species, a new language. Yet, how do we negotiate these two. 有必要发展新语汇，但它应如何与具体的宗教传统相联系呢？假设我们使用基督徒的语言，而它经历了各种各样的转变，并且仍然深深植根于特定的共同体，植根于具体的人类生活。但是，不仅因为全球化，而且也由于我们所面临的长期持久的问题，例如人类种群的生存能力（viability）问题，我们也需要一种新的语汇。然而，我们如何妥善协商处理这两者呢？ My reading of Confucian religion may be wrong; it may have only one language. This is the strength and limitation of something. That’s the reason we can have a Confucian-Christian, even a Confucian-Jew. Someone just wrote a paper called, “Can I Be a Confucian Israeli?” and things of that nature. We know there’s a Confucian-Muslim, because the Chinese term Hui-Ru回儒. Both as a Christian and Whiteheadian to be sure, would you consider this as an easy transition or as a challenge? Also, what is your view about the limitations and strengths of a tradition like Confucianism? 我对儒教（Confucian religion）的解读或许是错的，不过我认为它只有一种语汇。这意味着一事物的力量或局限。这就是我们何以可能有耶儒（Confucian-Christian，儒家基督徒），甚至犹儒（Confucian-Jew，儒家犹太教徒）。有人新近写了一篇论文，题为《我可能成为儒家以色列人吗？》，性质也相当。从中文词“回儒”来看，我们知道有儒家穆斯林。当然，您同时是一位基督徒和一位怀特海主义者，那么您会认为 这种身份是一个简单的转型，还是一种挑战？另外，您对儒家这样的 传统的局限和优势有何看法？ Cobb: Mm-hmm. Well, we just had a conference here the last couple of days and it was on conviviality. 嗯嗯。这个，最近几天我们刚刚在这里开了一次会，主题是共生（conviviality）。 Tu: Conviviality, yes. 共生，对的。 Cobb: Which means living together. 这个主题词的意思是共同生活（living together）。 Tu: Community. Yeah, living together. 共同体。是的，共同生活。 Anyway, breakthroughs like that excite me because I don’t anticipate them and I don’t do them, you understand. When it happens it’s wonderful. In any case, he said that he thought the time had come to, instead of saying that I am a process oriented Christian or a process oriented Jew or a process oriented Muslim, we should say, “I’m a Jewish-oriented process.” [laughs]无论如何，类似这样的种种突破都让我很是兴奋，因为我并未预见到这些，也并未能自行促成这些，您懂的。当突破就这样发生时， 简直太好了。无论如何，他说他认为已经是时候了：我们不再说自己 是一个过程取向的基督徒（process-oriented Christian），或过程取向的犹太人，或过程取向的穆斯林。我们应该说，“我是个犹太取向的过程（Jewish-oriented process）。”［笑］ Tu: The process becomes being human, is that the notion? 过程（process）就变成了“做人”（being human），是这个观念吧？ Cobb: No, that...不，这…… Tu: Oh, oh, in the process becoming, it’s that notion? 噢，噢，在生成的过程之中（in the process becoming），是这个观念吧？ Cobb: But he’s speaking of process thought as itself being that to which he is primarily committed. He realizes he is committed to it as a Jew out of the Jewish tradition and others are committed to it out of...但他论及过程思想时，是将其当作他主要信奉的东西。他意识到自己是作为一个来自犹太传统的犹太人而信奉过程思想的，而其他信奉者则…… Tu: As a Christian. Yeah. 作为基督徒。是的。 Cobb: Yeah. But this shift of making the process commitment primary or central is along the lines of what you were speaking of, you see. Tu: Absolutely, absolutely. 是的。但您会发现，使得过程信仰开始占据主要地位或中心地位的那种转变，与您刚才所说的相类似。 Cobb: I had never heard anyone say that before. I think that would be the most memorable result of this conference. 我以前从未听过有任何人说出这样的话。我认为这是此次会议最令人难忘的结果。 Tu: Yeah, because I think, if I understand him correctly, limited understanding. This is not only a metaphysical, but also anthropological and existential definition of process. In other words...是的，因为我认为，如果我对他的理解正确无误，那么这就不仅仅是形而上学意义上的，而且是人类学意义上和存在性（existential） 意义上的过程定义。换句话说…… Cobb: Oh, well, process thought has all those dimensions too. 哦，这个，过程思想也具备上述全部维度。 Tu: Features. 全部特征。 Cobb: That’s right. It’s also a scientific, a mathematical, and a logical philosophy. It has a slant; it’s a pair of glasses. If you look through that, everything is different. It wouldn’t be as different for a Confucian, you understand, as it would be for someone coming out of the first enlightenment or out of the West, because it is an overturning of a metaphysics and the way of looking at reality. Or a sublimation...You understand? 没错。过程思想也是个科学的、数学的以及逻辑的哲学。它有着某种倾向性；它如同一副眼镜。如果透过这副眼镜来观看，一切就都不同了。这种差异对于儒家来说，您懂的，并不会像对于来自第一次启蒙语境或者来自西方语境的人们那般显著，因为（对后者来说）这是对其形而上学的一种颠覆，是对其看待现实的方式的一种颠覆。或一种升华……您理解吧？ Tu: Mm-hmm. 嗯嗯。 Cobb: But he points out, as so many of us have, that when Jews and Hindus and Muslims who all have been influenced by Whitehead’s thought get together they communicate comfortably and freely. To me, there are no differences. But when Christians in the process community try to talk to Christian fundamentalists... [laughs] 但是他指出，正如我们许多人已经指出的那样：当全都同样受到怀特海思想影响的犹太人、印度教徒以及穆斯林聚在一起时，他们会舒适自由地进行交流。对我来说，其间并无差异。但是，当过程共同体（process community）中的基督徒试图与基要主义基督徒进行交谈时……［笑］ Tu: No common language.并无共同语言。 Cobb: We have, in a sense, more in common with each other than we have with many of our coreligionists.从某种意义上说，我们（过程思想信奉者）彼此之间的共同点，要比我们各自与自己的宗教信仰同类之间的共同点更多。 Tu: Mm-hmm. I want to be sure that I understand it. Instead of saying “I’m a Whiteheadian Christian” say in a specific sense “I’m a Christian Whiteheadian.” 嗯嗯。我想确定一下自己是否正确理解了这一点。你们并不说“我是个怀特海主义基督徒（Whiteheadian Christian）”，而是在特定意义上说“我是个基督教怀特海主义者（Christian Whiteheadian）”。 Cobb: That’s right. 没错。 Tu: “I’m a Jewish Whiteheadian,” yeah. 或“我是个犹太怀特海主义者”，是的。 Cobb: That’s what it amounts to. None of us have ever said that before, at least not in a public or clear way. I’m not sure that it’s quite true, because our historical and community identities are so very strong. 就是这个意思。我们之中没人这么说过，至少并未如此公开或明确地说过——我不确定我这么讲是否正确，因为我们的历史认同和共同体认同是如此强烈。 Tu: So powerful. 如此有力。 Cobb: But, nevertheless, what you were saying was we need a more global vision that really relates to the issues of ecology, for example. All of us at this conference, we have that. We get it from Whitehead, and then we adapt our traditions accordingly. 但是，无论如何，您先前在讨论的是，我们需要一个更具全球性的，真正与，比如说，生态问题相关联的视野。我们在此次会议上的所有人，都有这种视野。我们是从怀特海那里获得这种视野的，然后以之相应地调整我们各自的传统。 Cobb: I think that the problem is that humanists have been just as bad on the ecological issue.我认为问题在于，“人文主义者”在生态问题上同样糟糕。 Tu: I see. Well, because they’re anthropocentric.我明白。嗯，因为他们是人类中心的（anthropocentric）。 Cobb: Maybe even a little worse. The word humanism connotes...you explained to me that it’s not true of what you’re calling Confucianism.也许甚至更糟。“人文主义”一词的言外之意是……您向我解释过，您称之为儒家的东西并不真的如此。 Tu: Right.对。 Cobb: That’s fine.那还好。 Tu: Yes.是的。 Cobb: But just, you have to explain it very time you use the word. 但只不过，每次使用该词时，您都不得不解释一下。 Tu: I know. 我知道。 Cobb: Because I hear it as anthropocentric. 因为在我听起来，“humanism”就是人类中心的。 Tu: Yes. 是的。 Cobb: [laughs]［笑］ Tu: But I think one thing we may have to do, maybe next time we have a chance, is something that Whiteheadians, Confucians, and maybe other all share that is more basic than a historical moment or a culture. I argue against any form of abstract universalism. Of course, we are all against closed particularism, but one thing is the global significance of common humanity and the global significance of local knowledge. In any sense, the global significance will have to link to a dimension of being human, which is not being hijacked by this humanistic tradition which is always considered as enlightened secularism. 但是我认为我们可能得做一件事，也许下次就有机会了：要找到怀特海主义者、儒家以及或许还包括其他所有人所共有的东西，这 要比某种历史时刻或某种文化更为基本。我反对任何形式的抽象普遍主义（universalism）。当然，我们都反对封闭的特殊主义，但是一件要事是共同人性（common humanity）的全球性意义和本地知识的全球性意义。从任何意义上说，全球性意义都必须与“做人”（being human）的某一维度联系起来，不能被那种人文主义式（humanistic）传统所劫持——后者总是被认定为启蒙世俗主义（enlightened secularism）。 Cobb: It’s not a bad tradition. I don’t mean it’s worse than others. I just mean it’s not the endpoint. 这不是一个坏传统。我并不是要说这比其他传统更糟。我只是要说这还不是终点（endpoint）。 Cobb: I think that the success of religious communities, unfortunately, is more a function of how they affect the emotions than of how much sense they make, or even how much benefit they may be to the world. People everywhere as so hungry and troubled and in so much pain that anything that can alleviate the pain...Fundamentalists have learned to do that better than us mainliners. We just have to admit it. I’m not happy about it. [laughs] 我认为，不幸的是，宗教共同体的成功更多地取决于它们如何影响情绪（emotions），而并不取决于它们多讲道理，甚至也不取决于它们可以带给世界多少裨益。各地的人们都如此饥渴和困扰，如此痛苦不堪，任何可以缓和这种痛苦的东西……基要主义者们已经学会了更好地做到这一点，我们的骨干同道还不怎么行。我们只是不得不承认这个。我对此很不满意。［笑］ Tu: That’s true with my own position as well. 对我自己的立场来说，也是如此。 Cobb: Now Whitehead’s thought should point us in the direction of dealing more effectively with emotion, because for him unconscious emotion is what energy is. Energy is the universal reality. He says what we call energy in physics is subjectively experienced as emotion. That’s a very, very fundamental role to give to emotion. Maybe, if we adopt a Whiteheadian viewpoint and live with it, we will then give more attention to how to shape the emotions in a healthy way. I’m sure Confucian self-development does that. Obviously, today we have knowledge about the human psyche that was not available to Confucius. I’m confident that Confucianists don’t say, “Oh, you mustn’t learn anything from it.” 现在，怀特海的思想应当为我们更为有效地处理情绪指明 方向，因为对他而言，潜意识的情绪即是能量。能量是普遍性的现 实。他说，我们在物理学上称之为能量的那种东西，在主体（主观）意 义上是作为情绪而被经历的。这赋予了情绪非常非常根基性的地位。也许，如果我们采纳怀特海式观点，并持守它，那么我们将会更加关 注如何以某种健康的方式塑造情绪。我相信儒家式的自我成长（self- development）可以做到这一点。显然，今天，我们已经有了孔子时代所不具备的关于人类心理（human psyche）的知识。我坚信儒家并不会说：“哦，你决不能从中学习任何东西。” Tu: [laughs] ［笑］ Cobb: You know what I mean. To that extent I have no doubt that Confucianism is very open to learning from science. What the neuroscientists are learning about the brain is astonishing stuff. If you’re looking for a really religious life that will help with the masses of people, I think it’s important that if we’re going to try to influence these emotions that we keep in mind to what end we want to influence them, and only then try to develop the best methods that we can. Just resolving emotional needs at the moment may end up destroying the Earth. 您明白我的意思。从这个意义上讲，我毫不怀疑儒家非常愿意向科学学习。神经科学家对大脑的了解令人深感惊奇。如果您正在找寻一种对形形色色的人都有帮助的真正宗教式的生活，那么我认为重要的是：如果我们要尝试对诸般情绪施加影响，那么，请时刻牢记我们想要对之施加影响是为何目的，然后才尝试发展我们能够做到的最好方法。仅去解决当前的情绪需求，可能最终会毁灭地球。 Tu: Sometimes it becomes explosive, totally uncontrollable. I think in China, one of the dangers precisely when these very deep, sometimes unconscious, emotional forces that are generated by irresponsible demagogues, and I’m not just talking about political figures, but also including academicians...情感有时是爆炸性的，完全不可控。我认为在中国，当不负责任的煽动者挑动起那些极深重的，有时还是无意识的情感力量（emotional forces）时，就恰是最重大的危险之一——我不仅在谈论政治人物，而且还包括学者们…… Cobb: No, but there’s no question. Hitler was a master of manipulating emotions. That’s how demagogues become so successful and powerful. There are plenty of demagogues in the Christian Church who manipulate people’s emotions too, and then get their passions associated with ideas that either don’t make sense or do a great deal of damage. It’s a problem in all of our communities. I have more hope for China than I do for the United States at the present time.对，不仅是政治，但毫无疑问，希特勒是操纵情绪的大师。这就是煽动者如何变得如此成功且强大的范本。基督教会中有许多煽动者，他们也操纵人们的情绪，然后将他们的情感（passions）与毫无道理可言的或会造成巨大损害的想法关联在一起。在我们所有的共同体中都有这个问题。目前来说，我对中国，而不是对美国，怀有更大希望。 Tu: Well, since I’ve been in the States for a long time and I’m just discovering China, I reserve judgment now. I think my sense is...这个，鉴于我已经在美国待了很长时间，而对中国我还处在不断探索发现之中，所以我现在先保留判断。我认为我的感觉是…… Cobb: Probably the more I learn the less hopeful I would be, so don’t teach me too much. [laughter] 可能我了解越多，希望就越少，所以不要教我太多。［笑声］ Tu: What I’m concerned about is not that, but the timeframe. I think that in the United States, not just Claremont but anywhere you go, the whole intellectual atmosphere is more relaxed. You say, “Well, we have a lot of apathy,” and so forth. That’s not necessarily the case in China where the energy is tremendous and it’s very quick. Sometimes in a very short period of time, probably five years from now, we will see something that can be very positive and something can turn out to be, on the surface, very positive, but then the unintended negative consequence may be even more grandiose. The more people that are vigilant, but at the same time not worried simply about stability, the better. But how do we do that? 我担心的倒不是这个，而是大致的时间框架。我认为在美国，不仅是在克莱蒙特，而且也包括任何所到之处，整个智识氛围（intellectual atmosphere）都更加轻松。您会说，“好吧，我们有很多冷漠无感（apathy）的情况”，诸如此类。可是在中国，情况并不一定如此，那里能量极大且发展迅猛。有时在很短时间内，比如说五年后，我们 就会看到一些可能非常积极的东西，以及一些表面看来显现得非常积极的东西，但是意外的消极后果可能甚至会更大。保持警惕的人越多，其实越好，但同时又不仅仅是担心稳定。可我们该怎么做到这点呢？ Tu: Right now...现在是的…… Cobb: When they’ve not had things in the past. A great deal of emotional energy can be generated around that. Anybody who suggests, “Well now wait a minute. Let’s be concerned about the environment” may just get bulldozed downthat.当面对前所未有之事时，人们围绕此事会产生大量情感情绪能量。如有任何人想提议说，“嗯，现在等等看，让我们关心一下环境问题”，都可能会被推翻。 Tu: But fortunately, I think, we see some change and some hope. 但幸运的是，我认为我们也看到了一些变化和希望。 Cobb: No, I don’t think everybody is doing that. 嗯，我倒不认为每个人都欢欣鼓舞于消费主义。 Tu: No, no. 嗯，并不是每个人。 Cobb: That’s why I’m saying I’ve got hope. 这就是为什么我说我怀有希望。 Tu: Yes.是的。 Cobb: But I think that the danger that the energy can get mobilized in destructive ways also remains in China. 但我认为当今的真正问题是，诸般决策是依据短期经济利益而做出，还是依据长期全星球利益（planetary interests）而做出。 Tu: Very, very precarious. Very, very strong. 当然 Cobb: But I think the real issue today is whether decisions are made in terms of short-term economic interest or are made in terms of long-term planetary interests. 但我认为当今的真正问题是，诸般决策是依据短期经济利益而做出，还是依据长期全星球利益（planetary interests）而做出。 Tu: Absolutely.当然。 Cobb: In the United States, the corporations and Wall Street control us. They give us a lot of freedom to talk. We still are a very free society, in many respects. But so far as what actually happens, it’s not decided by our free discussion. In China, the power of wealth is rapidly growing, but I do not believe it controls the central government in the way in which it controls the US government. I think they still have a chance to reflect and develop policies that are for the good of China and the future of the planet, to some extent. If they tried to really stop the economic growth or something, of course there’d be an explosion and they’d be blown off the face of the headearth. [laughs] But I think they can maintain more balance at that point than our government can.在美国，公司和华尔街控制着我们。他们给了我们很多言谈自由。在许多方面，我们仍然是一个非常自由的社会。但是就实际发生的情况而言，一切并非由我们的自由讨论所决定。在中国，财富的力量正在迅速增长，但是我不认为财富会以控制美国政府的方式来控制中国的中央政府。我认为他们在一定程度上仍然有机会反思和制定对中国和对这个星球的未来有利的政策。如果他们试图真去阻止经济增长或其他发展，那么肯定会发生爆炸性后果，他们会被炸出地球表面。［笑］但我认为他们在这一点上，能够维持比我们的政府所能维持的更大的平衡。 That’s why I’m saying I have hope for China. It may be only 10 more years before wealth will gain control of China. Then it would be too late. You see, right now I think we have a chance and I would hope that the Confucianists in China would be equally concerned about it. 这就是为什么我说我对中国怀着希望。财富要控制中国可能还需要十年，然后就为时已晚。您看，现在我认为我们还有机会，并且我希望中国的儒家主义者同样关注这类问题。 In every province in China there is a University of Agriculture. Almost all of their top professors studied in schools of agriculture in the United States. All they learned was industrial agriculture. 中国每个省都有一所农业大学。它们几乎所有的顶尖教授都在美国的农学院学习过。他们所学到的只是工业型农业（industrial agriculture）。 Tu: There must be another way. 须有其他出路。 Cobb: We know another way. I really think we can tell them. We are doing so. We’re holding lots of conferences. We’re going to have a conference here, again. But when you are going up against all the experts and all the...You understand what I mean? 我们知道其他出路。我真的认为我们可以将之告诉他们。我们正在这样尝试。我们正在举办很多会议。我们这里会再办一场会议。但是，当要与之抗衡的是所有专家和所有……您明白我的意思吧？ Tu: Sure. 确实。 Cobb: If I were in the Chinese government I would say, “Well, we’re going to have serious agricultural development. Let’s call in our best professors and get their advice.” You understand, that’s a very natural, sensible thing, but they’ll get the wrong advice. [laughs] We’ve dented it. 如果我在中国政府任职，我会说：“好吧，我们将认真发展农业。让我们召集我们最好的教授，征求他们的意见。”您懂的，这是非常自然、非常明智的做法，但他们这样做会得到错误的建议。［笑］我们已经弱化了这点。 Tu: The situation in the United States, no. 在美国的情况，并不尽然。 Cobb: No, in China. 不，我说中国。 Tu: In China, right. 在中国，对。 Cobb: No, no, we haven’t dented it in the United States; it’s terrible. [laughs] We’ve already destroyed American agriculture. Once you do, it it’s extremely difficult to turn it around. That will only happen invariably through a collapse. But in China, Chinese peasants are good farmers. China is already doing very well. It would be possible for the government to develop policies that would be more favorable to the farmers in comparison with the urban dwellers. It’s difficult and delicate, but it can be done and I think the government has done some of it. But there are people who have shown the possibility of increasing production, even beyond what traditional peasant farming can do and doing it in ways that are more ecological. It’s not that we just want to argue for continue the peasant farming, but to get them to pick up on cutting edge developments that are outside the mainstream. One of the things that’s so important in China is to learn to produce more with less water because it will have less water in the future. 不，不，我们在美国也并未弱化这一点；情况仍然很可怕。［笑］我们已经毁坏了美国的农业。一旦如此，反转是极端困难的。不可避免的转变只会经由一场崩溃而发生。但是在中国，中国农民（peasants）都是好耕者（good famers）。中国已经做得很好。政府有可能制定出比相对于城市居民而言更有利于农民的政策。这既困难又微妙，但仍可以做到，而且我认为政府已经做到了一些。但是，有些人已经展示出了增加产量的可能性，甚至超出了传统农民的生产能力，并且是以更具生态性的方式进行生产。这并不是说，我们只是想要辩护一种持续的农民耕作（peasant farming），而是要让他们习得主流之外的前沿发展。在中国，极为重要的一件事是，学会如何用更少的水来生产更多的东西，因为将来水资源将更少。 Tu: Even now there’s that sense. 即使现在来看也是这样。 Cobb: The prospects are really very frightening in this respect. 这方面的前景真的非常骇人。 Tu: Very frightening, yes. 非常骇人，是的。 Cobb: This requires extremely labor-intensive work. One of the people who is advocating industrial agriculture says we will need to build cities for 800 million more people. [laughs] That’s the end of humanity, as far as I’m concerned. The world... 这需要极端劳动力密集型的工作。一位倡导工业型农业的人士说，我们需要再为 8 亿人口建设城市。［笑］就我而言，这就是人类的终结。这个世界…… Tu: Can’t afford it. 无法承担这个。 Cobb: ...can’t afford that and it can’t afford the agriculture that is all petroleum dependent and big machines and all that kind of thing. Once you do that, the possibility of producing goods with very little water becomes much less. The big machines can’t. Anyway, I consider this the most important decision before the government of China right now. I’m very glad to say we have had conferences in China and top-level people have been involved in them and at least at a high level the topic is being discussed. Obviously, we can’t make the decision, but I’m very enthusiastic about the fact that we’ve had a chance to participate in that way. I think that that’s the same direction that Confucianists would want to go. 无法承担。这个世界也无法承担石油依赖型的大机器农业，无法承担所有类似的东西。一旦如此，用较少的水生产商品的可能性就会大大降低。大机器做不到。无论如何，我认为这是目前中国政府要做的最重要决定。很高兴地说，我们在中国办过一些会；高层人士也参与其中，至少该主题正在较高级别上获得讨论。显然，我们无法去做决定，但我对我们事实上有机会以这种方式参与其中感到非常兴奋。我认为这就是儒家也想要走的同一方向。 Tu: Sure, mm-hmm. 确实，嗯嗯。 Cobb: I’m just pleading to you if you have any way of helping. We have made the general claim that this is in much more continuity with classical Chinese thinking than the industrialization of agriculture and making all the farmers leave the farm and all that kind of thing. It’s been interesting. When we have written and spoken most strongly about the accumulated wisdom that Chinese peasants bring to their work, to celebrate that. The image of the peasant as somebody’s who is ignorant is so totally unfair. 我其实是正在恳请您，看您是否可能以某种方式帮上忙。我们普遍认定，比起农业工业化，比起使所有农民离开农地之类的方式，我们所倡导的东西与中国古典思想之间有着更强的连续性。这真有趣。围绕中国农民在其劳作中体现的累积性智慧，我们写了最有力的文章，发表了最有力的讲话来称颂之。农民（peasant）作为愚昧者的形象，是完全不公平的。 Tu: No, they’re farmers, in the best sense. 不，他们是耕者（farmers），在最好的意义上。 Cobb: They’re farmers. They are farmers who have great wisdom that very few of the rest of us have. To lose all of that at this juncture would just be so horrible. Anyway, you can understand I feel very passionately about it because I think hundreds of millions of lives are at stake. Whenever I get a chance I’ll say, “Come on. Help us.” [laughter] 他们是耕者。他们是拥有伟大智慧的耕者，我们其余人少有他们的智慧。在这个关头，失去所有这些，真是太可怕了。无论如何， 您可以理解我为何对此充满热情，因为我认为数以亿计的生命处于危险之中。只要有机会，我都会对人们说：“来嘛。帮帮我们。”［笑声］ Tu: I think you’re absolutely right. The image of the farmer throughout Chinese history, especially in Confucian tradition, is very positive. 我认为您做得太对了。耕者在整个中国历史中的形象，尤其在儒家传统中的形象，是非常积极正面的。 Cobb: That’s good. But obviously the policies that have been used for the development have thus far accelerated urban development and forced farmers to spend part of their time earning money in the cities in order to survive. The fact that the government said it was time to give emphasis to agricultural development is good. 那就好。但很明显，迄今为止用于发展的政策都远为集中于加速城市发展，并迫使耕作者把部分时间用于在城市里赚钱谋生。政府说，已经到了强调农业发展的时候了——这个事实是好现象。 Tu: Mm-hmm. 嗯嗯。 Cobb: It’s just everything depends on what they mean by development. [laughs] 一切都取决于他们所说的发展是什么意思。［笑］ Tu: Sure. 确实。 Cobb: We need to celebrate farms and indicate our admiration for them. The Chinese farmers have been producing an awful lot on very little land for a long time and have protected the quality of the land over hundreds of years. They’ve made some mistakes too. 我们需要称颂农耕者，并表达我们对他们的赞赏。长期以来，中国农耕者在极少的土地上生产出大量收获，数百年来一直保护着土地质量。他们也犯过一些错误。 Tu: Sure. 确实。 Cobb: It’s not a perfect history. To despise all that because it’s not industrial, it’s just...这不是个完美的历史。但如果轻视所有那些，只是因为这并非工业型农业，这就恰恰…… Tu: It’s dangerous.危险。 Cobb: ...evil. 邪恶。 Tu: Well, thanks a lot. 嗯，非常感谢。 Cobb: Well thank you. 嗯，谢谢您。 Tu: Thank you. 要谢谢您。 Cobb: No, I appreciate you coming. It’s an honor for me to have you. 不，我很感激您的到来。您来这儿，是我的荣耀。 Tu: It’s really marvelous. I must say the last part of it. I know the importance, but I haven’t really sensed the urgency of the importance. Thanks a lot. 真是绝妙的一次谈话。必须由我来说致谢的最后一部分。我知道我们所谈内容的重要性，但我在此之前还没有真正感觉到这种重要性的紧迫性。非常感谢。 Cobb: Yeah. No, I’m very interested in a lot of other things we’re doing. I think there is an experiment in education by a woman who understands herself as a Whiteheadian, and when I asked, “Well, how many students are involved in the experiment?” I was told 35 million. The numbers just boggle my mind in China. I’m very interested in that. I think it’s wonderful that Whitehead’s educational theories are being tested in a laboratory of that kind, but I don’t have the feeling of urgency about that that I do about the agriculture. 是呢。不过，我对我们正在做的许多其他事情也非常感兴趣。我记得有位自认为是怀特海主义者的女性在进行一项教育实验。我问，“那么，有多少学生参与这场实验？”她回答是 3500 万。在中国，这样的数字总是让我感到震惊。我对此很感兴趣。怀特海的教育理论正在这种类型的实验室中接受测试，我认为真是太好了。但我对此并未感到同等级的紧迫性，比起我对农业的紧迫感来说。 Tu: Right. 对。 Cobb: But we respond to whatever comes up, do our best. 但我们要回应所出现的任何趋势，尽我们所能。 Tu: That’s great. 这太好了。 Cobb: What I’m so happy about in my old age is that we did a lot of things over the years that had a little drop in the bucket here and there, even the trivial and marginal and all that. Now, so much of it has relevance in China, so that when they say they would like to have a conference on psychology from a process point of view, there are enough people in that field that we can send to help them. It’s a tiny minority of people here, you understand, but it’s enough to make a significant contribution. One time they asked for people in the field of law who could tell them how process thought affects that. We were able to put together a little team. If it has to do with urban development, we can put together a little team. Agriculture, we can put together... [laughs] That’s an accomplishment that I was not aiming for. We weren’t doing it with any... 以我的高龄，令我感到如此开心的是，我们这些年来做了很多事，这里那里，锱铢积累，哪怕是琐碎的和边缘的作为。现在，我们如此多的工作都在中国极具相关性。因此当他们说希望从过程视角召开一次心理学会议时，我们可以派遣该领域足够的人手来帮助他们。您知道，那个领域只有很少人，但足以作出重要贡献。他们也曾经向 法律领域的相关专家寻求帮助，以获知过程思维如何影响该领域。我们能够集合起一个小团队。如果关注城市发展问题，我们可以相应组建一个小团队。关注农业，我们可以组建……［笑］这还不是我打算做出一番成就的目标。我们对此什么也没做，任何…… Tu: Preconceived intention. 既有的意图。 Cobb: ...clear goal in mind. But it makes me very pleased that, thus far, we have not had to say, “Sorry nobody has done it.” Last year we did ecological economics conference. But if they want to be an ecological civilization, they’ve got to have ecological economics, they’ve got to have ecological agriculture, they’ve got to have ecological cities. We can put on conferences on all those topics. That’s wonderful. I’m proud. [laughs] That doesn’t mean that that’s what’s going to happen, you understand, but...头脑中明确的目标。但令我感到非常高兴的是，到目前为止，我们不必说：“对不起，还没有人这样做过。”去年我们举行了一次生态经济学（ecological economics）会议。我们讨论了何为一种生态的……但如果他们想要成为一种生态文明，就必须拥有生态经济学，必须拥有生态农业，必须拥有生态城市。我们可以就所有这些主题举行会议。那就棒极了。我很自豪。［笑］这并不意味着这些生态愿景都将要发生，您懂的，不过…… Cobb: Well, but that possibility itself... 嗯，不过那个可能性本身…… Tu: But there is interest. We were developing a blueprint for really making a difference and we didn’t think anybody would ever try. [laughs] The fact that the Chinese are interested, you can imagine how much that does for me. 不过还是引发了兴趣。我们此前一直在制订一个真正可借以做出改变的蓝图，而我们并不认为有任何人会去真的尝试。［笑］中国人对此产生兴趣，您可以想象，这个事实对我有多大激励。 Cobb: Terrific. 好极了。
